• Re: Hi all!

    From tenser@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Sep 23 06:46:58 2025
    On 20 Sep 2025 at 12:31p, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    I miss the days of Audacious Hardware Design. Give me a MIPS-powered
    Silicon Graphics box in some fever-dream color, Pee-Wee's
    playhouse-derived case design, and a kick-ass keyboard. Or a Sun Sparc.
    Or one of those industrial design looking IBM RS/6000s.

    No love for DEC? Their later Alpha boxes looked pretty slick.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to tenser on Tue Sep 23 07:30:04 2025
    tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I miss the days of Audacious Hardware Design. Give me a MIPS-powered
    Silicon Graphics box in some fever-dream color, Pee-Wee's
    playhouse-derived case design, and a kick-ass keyboard. Or a Sun Sparc.
    Or one of those industrial design looking IBM RS/6000s.

    No love for DEC? Their later Alpha boxes looked pretty slick.

    A friend of mine couldn't bear to see a DEC Alpha being tossed out at
    work, so he brought it home. It ran NT 3.51 and IIS for way longer than
    it should have - but it would not die.

    It was sort of a peak-industrial design mid-tower from the early '90s.



    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Sep 24 22:34:16 2025
    In 2000, I ran a company off of a Sun Enterprise 250 - Purple, gray,
    big vents, a big door with a key... we replaced it with a bunch of
    white boxes running Linux. :(

    That wasn't the worst days of it.. I remember the days of the 'big iron' workstations and micro-servers turning into beige Linux. But at least the operating system running in all that beige was a fun time to be in though. Back in 2000-2010, Linux was such a vibrant community. People really cared, interesting things were happening every day, and people committed so much of their free time to open source goodness for the sake of it, not corporate greed. I feel that has all but vanished now.

    Now it's a sea of beige, and a sea of beige operating systems. Even Linux has ceded ownership largely to a few big corps when it comes down to it, excluding the kernel, for the most part anyway. But even that has parts coded by IBM, Microsoft, Google and others. Nothing is free any more. No more cathedral and the bazaar.

    Al


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to hyjinx on Wed Sep 24 06:43:22 2025
    hyjinx wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Now it's a sea of beige, and a sea of beige operating systems.

    Beigey-black. I'm tempted to paint my black desktop case something
    garish. I did see a standard Dell done in an olive green with woodgrain
    inserts, I kinda liked that...




    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to hyjinx on Wed Sep 24 11:42:57 2025

    When computers started to become more about tools rather than objects of fun and tinkering. That's probably when I lost interest in the hardware.


    And that's where tinkering comes back. We live in times where it's relatively easy to create your own computer connecting PCB, native chips and fpga emulation.

    I don't have time for that so I tinker with such created by others or retro where bare metal is still not fully uncovered. But yeah, times when you can have your own custom cyber deck with your own hw and software wares is now!

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Sep 25 08:00:33 2025
    On 23 Sep 2025 at 07:30a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    No love for DEC? Their later Alpha boxes looked pretty slick.

    A friend of mine couldn't bear to see a DEC Alpha being tossed out at work, so he brought it home. It ran NT 3.51 and IIS for way longer than
    it should have - but it would not die.

    Yeah. I've still got an Alpha down in the basement that runs VMS.
    I don't need this machine, but it's fun.

    A fan died on it a year or so ago; the machine shut down instantly
    with a thermal warning. Ok, so I got a new fan; low power, but enough
    air movement to keep things cool. I installed it and the machine shut
    down _again_. Oops; looks like they were measuring current drawn by
    the fan as a proxy for how well it was working: the system believed
    my much more efficient fan was broken (it was not).

    So I had to get a less efficient fan. :-D

    The SCSI disks in it are starting to die, though.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to hyjinx on Fri Sep 26 02:04:13 2025
    On 24 Sep 2025 at 10:34p, hyjinx pondered and said...

    Now it's a sea of beige, and a sea of beige operating systems. Even
    Linux has ceded ownership largely to a few big corps when it comes down
    to it, excluding the kernel, for the most part anyway. But even that has parts coded by IBM, Microsoft, Google and others. Nothing is free any more. No more cathedral and the bazaar.

    I think that's a bit of a simplification. IBM, MSFT, and Google
    contribute to Linux because it's in their strategic best interests
    to do so, but that doesn't mean that Linux is any less "free" than
    it was before.

    What _has_ changed is that the barrier to entry, and overall cost
    (in terms of time, energy, politics, etc, but not necessarily money)
    has increased dramatically. BigCo contributions to Linux seem to
    dominate so much because those companies have the resources to
    sponsor engineers shepherding their changes through to integration;
    but a lot of other folks do not. So the biggies can afford to do
    it, and passionate individuals do it just because, while a lot of
    smaller organizations cannot justify the expense.

    But even within the ranks of the big boys, there is discontent:
    for a working engineer, time and energy (and political capital) have
    a very direct relationship with money, so often it's easier to just
    float a patch in your local repo than upsteam a change. And that
    causes real problems: when I was on Google's kernel team, we had an
    _enormous_ patch set and it took a very long time to rebase onto an
    upstream release.

    Why not upstream all of that? A great question, with a few different
    answers. One is that some of it couldn't; some stuff had been done
    in collaboration with a vendor, under NDA, and Google was legally
    barred from sending that code upstream. Some was because, even
    though there was no significant intellectual property concerns, code
    might be so Google-specific that it didn't make sense to send upstream;
    much of that is historical baggage, but getting rid of it takes time.
    But probably the biggest reason was that it wasn't economically viable
    for a lot of stuff. Google might make a change that was a win, but
    for a specific, constrained use-case. It may be cool to upstream, but
    when it's sent someone looks at it and says, "yeah, this is neat, but
    it only works for n=1; you should generalize it for any n." Except
    that doing that generalization might be 10x the work of the current
    patch: the engineer can't justify the investment because it provides
    no additional value to Google, so it's easier to just float the patch.
    Of course, over time, that decision is more expensive than doing the
    work and getting the thing upstreamed, but we're talking about a 5-10
    year timeline here.

    Anyway, yeah, Linux is as free as ever, but the days of Torvalds
    taking any random code and integrating it are certainly over. The
    bar is much higher, and that cost can be borne by the Googles,
    IBMs, Amazons, Metas, and Facebooks of the world, but not so much
    by the smaller players, let alone individuals who are more
    interested in casual contribution.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to tenser on Sat Sep 27 09:27:52 2025
    Why not upstream all of that? A great question, with a few different answers. One is that some of it couldn't; some stuff had been done
    in collaboration with a vendor, under NDA, and Google was legally
    barred from sending that code upstream. Some was because, even
    though there was no significant intellectual property concerns, code
    might be so Google-specific that it didn't make sense to send upstream; much of that is historical baggage, but getting rid of it takes time.
    But probably the biggest reason was that it wasn't economically viable
    for a lot of stuff. Google might make a change that was a win, but
    for a specific, constrained use-case. It may be cool to upstream, but when it's sent someone looks at it and says, "yeah, this is neat, but
    it only works for n=1; you should generalize it for any n." Except
    that doing that generalization might be 10x the work of the current
    patch: the engineer can't justify the investment because it provides
    no additional value to Google, so it's easier to just float the patch.
    Of course, over time, that decision is more expensive than doing the
    work and getting the thing upstreamed, but we're talking about a 5-10
    year timeline here.

    This is a really interesting insight. I bet more people would like to know the inner workings of contribution in the corporate fed open source world. If you'd ever consider wrapping this convo into dialogue that you'd be willing to share to a wider audience, I'd love to interview you for the YouTube channel. Let me know if you're interested.

    Cheers,
    Al


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to hyjinx on Sat Sep 27 11:55:21 2025
    On 27 Sep 2025 at 09:27a, hyjinx pondered and said...

    This is a really interesting insight. I bet more people would like to
    know the inner workings of contribution in the corporate fed open source world. If you'd ever consider wrapping this convo into dialogue that
    you'd be willing to share to a wider audience, I'd love to interview you for the YouTube channel. Let me know if you're interested.

    Heh, I don't know if you really want to interview me; I'm pretty
    boring. But I'd be happy to chat with you some time if you'd like
    to explore further.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From apam@21:3/197 to tenser on Sat Sep 27 04:01:28 2025
    Heh, I don't know if you really want to interview me; I'm pretty
    boring. But I'd be happy to chat with you some time if you'd like
    to explore further.

    Hehe, I disagree. You are definitley not boring. At least to the right
    target audience ;P

    Seriously though, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge and experience
    and it's an absolute privilege to be able to get your insights into
    things.

    I'd definitly watch an interview with you.

    Andrew


    --- envy/0.1-6dee535
    * Origin: Quinn - Random Things - bbs.quinnos.com:2323 (21:3/197)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to apam on Sun Sep 28 01:56:41 2025
    On 27 Sep 2025 at 04:01a, apam pondered and said...

    Heh, I don't know if you really want to interview me; I'm pretty boring. But I'd be happy to chat with you some time if you'd like
    to explore further.

    Hehe, I disagree. You are definitley not boring. At least to the right target audience ;P

    Seriously though, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge and experience and it's an absolute privilege to be able to get your insights into things.

    Oh wow, that's really kind of you to say. Thank you very much!

    I'd definitly watch an interview with you.

    I would hate to disappoint. People would see just how un-photogenic
    I am, though.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)